tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post1204588027180985312..comments2023-09-19T08:51:21.932+01:00Comments on The Altruist: Scram Tacklers - Taranis v EnyoAzualhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00284543108965798013noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-5616890228689288322013-01-29T13:07:02.726+00:002013-01-29T13:07:02.726+00:00On the subject of cross training, it makes good se...On the subject of cross training, it makes good sense for most gallente pilots to cross train to minmatar for the pirate faction frigates and cruisers. Racial frigate V and tech 2 small guns for the other race isn't a significantly long train so I don't find it outrageous that the Jaguar has been suggested. I'd like to see a range of "best ship for the role" comparison articles with this sort of analysis coupled with in game testing to see if the analysis holds true in practice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-40947797329352398942013-01-28T07:30:58.951+00:002013-01-28T07:30:58.951+00:00This is such a great article and I hope we see mor...This is such a great article and I hope we see more on this kind of comparison.Victor Markovnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-45808135306260566142013-01-24T18:06:39.707+00:002013-01-24T18:06:39.707+00:00Having fewer drones doesn't really affect your...Having fewer drones doesn't really affect your choice *that* much imo. It might impact how much effort you're willing to put into micromanaging them, but it's not like turrets where a ship with poor damage potential gains less from fitting a damage mod or upsizing its guns than one with good damage potential - another hobgoblin/warrior/ec-300 is just as effective whether it's by itself or one of five, or whether it's launched from one of your fleet's damage dealers or one of your tacklers.<br /><br />For the other EW drones having fewer of them at least mitigates the stacking penalty, but their usefulness is limited by other factors. For SW drones, the big problem is speed - a max skilled warrior SW-300 goes 3km/s, the same speed as the Enyo and slower than most other tacklers. When it gets in range (which might be after you do, and at best will probably be not long before), it only slows the target by a fairly small amount - about 50m/s for your typical BC, which assuming it gets there 10 seconds before you (a generous assumption) is going to save you travelling a whole 500m. Once they're scrammed, we're talking about less than 10m/s difference.<br /><br />For TD, SD and TP drones, their mid slot equivalents work from range so there's no reason that your target shouldn't already have them applied (in which case stacking penalties further reduce the already small effect of your drones). The TD drone is probably the only one that I can see a decent argument for - it's slightly faster than a SW drone (4km/s) and it useful both while approaching and while in orbit. The effect is pretty small (5% range, 5% tracking) but if you used it smartly, and the rest of your gang wasn't using mid slot TD, I could see it making a meaningful difference. Not much, but maybe enough to justify it in the right circumstances.Azualhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00284543108965798013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-11619219136737276112013-01-24T17:26:30.576+00:002013-01-24T17:26:30.576+00:00No argument that, with a full flight of drones ava...No argument that, with a full flight of drones available, damage drones beat out EW drones almost every time. <br /><br />But, with only 2 drones available for the Taranis and 1 drone for the Enyo, is this still true?<br /><br />Also, both of these ships fit small blasters, which are already pretty good at killing drones fast, even without the damage drones.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-30578329617147759582013-01-24T13:13:06.796+00:002013-01-24T13:13:06.796+00:00And damage drones allow you to clear hostile drone...And damage drones allow you to clear hostile drones more quickly, which are arguably the greatest threat to you as a tackler once you're within range.<br /><br />With ECM drones I can see the benefit, but mainly just to reduce neuting pressure - the likelihood of them getting a jam before you're already under your target's guns is very low. As for the rest, I'm not convinced they're actally any use in practice.Azualhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00284543108965798013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-31389283148350273032013-01-24T11:14:19.435+00:002013-01-24T11:14:19.435+00:00Great article, as usual, Azual.
I always find it ...Great article, as usual, Azual.<br /><br />I always find it amusing when someone says that Ship X is *not* a tackler. Given how many ships are regularly fit with the holy trio of scram/web/mwd, you'd think that almost every ship in the game was a tackler.<br /><br />I believe that the best tackler is situational. For example, an Enyo is almost always a better tackler than a Taranis, when you warp in right on the target.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-21149108324866431322013-01-24T11:00:26.364+00:002013-01-24T11:00:26.364+00:00I'm glad you did *not* compare Taranis vs Jagu...I'm glad you did *not* compare Taranis vs Jaguar.<br /><br />Not everyone wants to spend time cross-training races, esp. newer players. So, seeing how ships within the same race compare, for a given role, is more generally useful than comparing ships in different races. Esp. since CCP is now pushing to make it even more time consuming to cross-train, with the upcoming changes to dessie and BC skills.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-58725499813479934292013-01-24T10:48:34.990+00:002013-01-24T10:48:34.990+00:00If you like the Incursus, you'll love the Enyo...If you like the Incursus, you'll love the Enyo - guaranteed!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-44297942470873962762013-01-24T10:47:15.713+00:002013-01-24T10:47:15.713+00:00EW drones do increase your survivability, as a tac...EW drones do increase your survivability, as a tackler, even if just slightly - every second counts. <br /><br />ECM drones do a great job of making it more difficult for your target to kill you. Web drones can slow down targets who are trying to burn away from you, so you can close range faster. TD drones can reduce the incoming damage from guns, while you are zigzagging in and while you are orbiting. TP drones can help your corpmates hit the target and do more damage faster (the faster the target dies, the more likely you survive). Admittedly, SD drones are useless, though.<br /><br />I've survived, with only that little slice of structure remaining, enough times to know that every little bit helps.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-15609003028796257742013-01-24T09:47:37.352+00:002013-01-24T09:47:37.352+00:00Like I said, it's not the most scientific anal...Like I said, it's not the most scientific analysis. I'm actually thinking of doing a version based on the 'top' ships in each class (dram v jag v stiletto etc) to see whether it would look any different.Azualhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00284543108965798013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-65796594529532771652013-01-24T08:46:35.470+00:002013-01-24T08:46:35.470+00:00While I can see where you are coming from when com...While I can see where you are coming from when comparing Taranis and Enyo, I don't just see what Rynnik writes, but also how the damage part would be pretty irrelevant to me. <br /><br />Sure, if you want to kill a hostile frig, the DPS starts playing a role, but the things you mentioned ("taking damage while you approach") usually don't have you in a damage dealer role. Thus the Enyo would really be more out of the question (as it deserves - noone uses an Enyo for scram tackle, stated above). <br /><br />The weighing in of certain parts "mobility, 2x survivability, DPS" and coming out with a X:Y also looks a bit ... off, sorry, just because they usually don't carry exactly the same value to each of them. It would be like comparing a Drake to a 'ranis as scram tackle and then go "Well, Drake does more/longer range DPS and has a way stronger tank, still two points" which will easily look... a bit wrong ;)<br /><br />While I can totally see how making a comparison is a good way to deduce "See, that's why one wouldn't want an Enyo as a scram tackle" (unless as a damage dealer, but than you probably wouldn't call it tackle), IMO it should still contain a stronger note at the end that the Taranis or Enyo might not be the top candidates for the comparison (the Enyo not for sure), but that there's other strong contenders (it's hinted at with the Ares, but the Jag mentioned before would still be my fav as well).ToranBradesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-40603939562913120612013-01-20T19:43:00.902+00:002013-01-20T19:43:00.902+00:00Azual - brilliant and thorough analysis, as always...Azual - brilliant and thorough analysis, as always, and very useful. You always teach me something new. Thanks for your insightful mind and consistently clear, candid presentation of your findings. Please - keep up this kind of good work for us EVE players!<br />Nev<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17750779710647245446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-24187821832729031502013-01-20T15:43:04.728+00:002013-01-20T15:43:04.728+00:00It would have been a better comparison, but it wou...It would have been a better comparison, but it wouldn't have answered the question!<br /><br />You did read the bit about it being a question right? It's up there in the first sentence. ;)Azualhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00284543108965798013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-22932657966326438992013-01-20T14:29:31.132+00:002013-01-20T14:29:31.132+00:00I am disappointed in you Azual. The article shoul...I am disappointed in you Azual. The article should have been Taranis v Jaguar. Who uses a SHIELD enyo for 'heavy' scram tackle, and why would you waste time writing an in-depth article from such a shaky premise?<br /><br />Then again, that sounds harsh, so thanks for the good read like always. ;-)<br /><br />RynnikRynniknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-27039114576221326122013-01-20T14:20:27.311+00:002013-01-20T14:20:27.311+00:00An interesting article as ever, Azual. Personally...An interesting article as ever, Azual. Personally I prefer the Jaguar for this role with a single masb and mse. The damage output is less, but it can tank a flight of unbonused drones and with a energy vamp in the high it can hold scram for very long while. Unistas should check the recorded lessons archive, there was an excellent lesson on assault frigates as heavy tackles a few months ago. It'll be interesting to see peoples feedback when they try it out. Thanks again Azual, thought provoking stuff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-46999720608495421712013-01-19T16:55:55.227+00:002013-01-19T16:55:55.227+00:00I took the single values from the EFT graph at 10,...I took the single values from the EFT graph at 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30km, and then took an average of them. It's not the most robust science, but it's a decent approximation.Azualhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00284543108965798013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-25813756311931144162013-01-19T11:49:15.217+00:002013-01-19T11:49:15.217+00:00How did you calculate the average damage over time...How did you calculate the average damage over time for the ships? I get how to use the DPS graphs (I think) but can only read single values off them. Is it using EFT or did you do it manually?Terrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16638021224418687915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-57225207598824903942013-01-18T17:35:01.863+00:002013-01-18T17:35:01.863+00:00As the person who originally asked the question on...As the person who originally asked the question on the E-Uni forums I'd just like to say thanks again for the effort you put into your response. As I'm a poor Unista I'll be sticking with the Atron for now although I did have some success with an Incursus the other day which is making me lean towards the Enyo at the moment.Mia Sedgwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12639792228859979192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-70836326874557365372013-01-17T18:23:15.971+00:002013-01-17T18:23:15.971+00:00Azual: I think you missed a word:
"Assuming ...Azual: I think you missed a word:<br /><br />"Assuming your gang excluding does about 2000dps"zievarrennahttp://twitter.com/zievarrennanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-57280044295562582362013-01-17T11:18:04.303+00:002013-01-17T11:18:04.303+00:00Well you and others suggested the ares would do a ...Well you and others suggested the ares would do a better job, hence my remark about fleet Indies. (followed by me failing and talking about the ranis)<br /><br />I wasn't very serious on the eaf.<br /><br />In my defense they have the same ehp as your taranis fit. Sig radius is a problem here of course but they might have the ewar slots to mitigate that somewhat on a 1v1 situation. But this is where eft warrioring becomes dangerous for your health.Gyasihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13456978806987702052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-33722985045922440442013-01-17T11:00:39.404+00:002013-01-17T11:00:39.404+00:00Honestly, the Hyena and Keres are pretty terrible ...Honestly, the Hyena and Keres are pretty terrible for the job due to low HP and massive sig radius. There are good reasons that nobody uses EAFs right now (other than the occasional Kitsune).<br /><br />The Taranis, along with the Claw & Crusader is actually *designed* to be a scram tackler. It doesn't have the locking range to use a long point effectively, and lacks the range bonus that the fleet inties get. Of course just because they're designed for it doesn't mean they're good...<br />Azualhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00284543108965798013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-38783382399644456282013-01-17T09:39:11.176+00:002013-01-17T09:39:11.176+00:00I always thought it was embarrassing to be caught ...I always thought it was embarrassing to be caught with a scram on an fleet inty. The taranis was probably the only exception. I probably listened to Glepp too much.<br /><br />Now if my only goal was to put a scram on something with an AF (so on a moderately Slow target) I'd use a hawk or a harpy for asb and a tracking disruptor. Additionally it can fit a web to hero those 100mn.<br /><br />Mind you, Hyena or Keres might even be a superior choice. And bonus point for rare ship.Gyasihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13456978806987702052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-51079081779312391552013-01-17T09:19:44.937+00:002013-01-17T09:19:44.937+00:00Aside from ECM, the EW drones are all pretty terri...Aside from ECM, the EW drones are all pretty terrible due to small percentages and stacking penalties.<br /><br />You could use EW drones if you want, it's up to you - your drone choice doesn't really impact your tacking ability (unlike fitting low slot damage mods), and a damage drone from you is just as effective as one from any other non-bonused ship in the fleet.Azualhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00284543108965798013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-55468679877365523332013-01-17T09:12:32.983+00:002013-01-17T09:12:32.983+00:00Heh, not sure where I got that from. You're ri...Heh, not sure where I got that from. You're right.Azualhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00284543108965798013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3194738944223601630.post-75989643494060864072013-01-17T07:55:02.614+00:002013-01-17T07:55:02.614+00:00"Damage output is a nice plus, but not a prio..."Damage output is a nice plus, but not a priority."<br /><br />If true, then why use the Hobs? Wouldn't EW drones do more to tip the scales?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com